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"Conshies"
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Jim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Slight correction, Julie.
The WTBTS were not always COs.
They were even encouraged to take the pledge of allegiance to the U.S. flag before the mid 'forties.
Another doctrine they swept under the carpet.....
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
I'd say it took nads of stainless steel to be a CO,


I entirely agree. I wish I had that kind of courage. To imagine that these guys were publically shamed and punished as cowards is appalling.

Floo I imagine you're rightly proud of your grandfather the MO. As Shaker says, some would not even do that - fair enough - but being an MO meant putting yourself between your patients and danger on a daily basis. Good for him.

Shaker, you're a Dad's Army fan - isn't there a storyline (maybe in the film version?) in which they find that Godfrey was a CO in WWI, and Fraser et al are all very angry about it, until they learn he earned the George Cross or the Military Cross or something for courage under fire as an MO?
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Jim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman;
Yep.
There IS such an episode, where Godfrey is kicked out of the platoon for being a conshie, only to be unvielled as a hero for stretcher bearing and life saving in the trenches.
Jimmy Perry wrote that episode as a tribute to a CO he knew from childhood, and as someone he admired for extraordinary courage.
There were, however, incidents in WWI where conshies were assaulted and villified.
Before the 'Bevin Boys' were introduced as conscript miners, some conshies went down the mines voluntarily instead of being called up.
Many had 'accidents' down below, or were victimised to a terrible degree. As you know, my town was steeped in mining - and many older miners in the sixties were openly ashamed to admit some of the things they inflicted on 'conshies' (Usually Brethren) miners...from putting faeces in their lunch boxes, to almost drowning them in flooded seams.
To continue in their view took incredible courage and conviction.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trentvoyager wrote:
Stating the bleedin' obvious here - but if we were all CO's then wars would be a lot more difficult for the powers that be to prosecute.

I know it's unlikely ever to happen, human nature being what it is, but the logic of the CO's postition from that standpoint is infallible.

This is very true. It's one of those situations where there's strength in numbers - if enough combatants on both sides put down their arms (mutinied, essentially) and said to the powers-that-be "Fight your own bloody war - we won't" then wars would come to an end. That sort of thing however relies on a great enough number of those who join in - if it's confined to a small number, you're sunk.
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Rose
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Stating the bleedin' obvious here - but if we were all CO's then wars would be a lot more difficult for the powers that be to prosecute.

I know it's unlikely ever to happen, human nature being what it is, but the logic of the CO's postition from that standpoint is infallible.

This is very true. It's one of those situations where there's strength in numbers - if enough combatants on both sides put down their arms (mutinied, essentially) and said to the powers-that-be "Fight your own bloody war - we won't" then wars would come to an end. That sort of thing however relies on a great enough number of those who join in - if it's confined to a small number, you're sunk.


Hitler would have invaded us, just like he invaded other countries.

Surely it was worth fighting to keep him out?

Julie
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trentvoyager
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rose wrote:
Shaker wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Stating the bleedin' obvious here - but if we were all CO's then wars would be a lot more difficult for the powers that be to prosecute.

I know it's unlikely ever to happen, human nature being what it is, but the logic of the CO's postition from that standpoint is infallible.

This is very true. It's one of those situations where there's strength in numbers - if enough combatants on both sides put down their arms (mutinied, essentially) and said to the powers-that-be "Fight your own bloody war - we won't" then wars would come to an end. That sort of thing however relies on a great enough number of those who join in - if it's confined to a small number, you're sunk.


Hitler would have invaded us, just like he invaded other countries.

Surely it was worth fighting to keep him out?

Julie


Julie - when I said "if we were all...." I wasn't limiting it solely to the British.
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Rose
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trentvoyager wrote:
Rose wrote:
Shaker wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Stating the bleedin' obvious here - but if we were all CO's then wars would be a lot more difficult for the powers that be to prosecute.

I know it's unlikely ever to happen, human nature being what it is, but the logic of the CO's postition from that standpoint is infallible.

This is very true. It's one of those situations where there's strength in numbers - if enough combatants on both sides put down their arms (mutinied, essentially) and said to the powers-that-be "Fight your own bloody war - we won't" then wars would come to an end. That sort of thing however relies on a great enough number of those who join in - if it's confined to a small number, you're sunk.


Hitler would have invaded us, just like he invaded other countries.

Surely it was worth fighting to keep him out?

Julie


Julie - when I said "if we were all...." I wasn't limiting it solely to the British.


Ah! That's true, if people hadn't listened to Hitler in the first place, there wouldn't be an issue!

Leaders can't do it alone

Julie
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Jim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julie...
Don't go down the "What if..." road.
That leads to "What if the people hadn't listened to the warmongers in 1914...would there have BEEN a Hitler to listen to?"

It's speculation, nothing more!
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Richie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: "Conshies" Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
On another thread, the matter of conscience has arisen.
With the start of WWI being marked in this centenary year, the matter of those who would not fight as a matter of conscience has arisen in a few news articles on BBC Radio Scotland.
These people were treated with bile and revulsion by many in the general populus in both World Wars, yet many refused to fight for cultural, political or religious reasons.
Were they just as much herose as those buried on the battlefield?


Will stick my neck out and say no

The war was not an honourable thing, and certainly unlike the 2nd WW the enemy was not fighting for an ideology which was running against basic decency, but once the war was up and running and once it had gotten to the point of total war then their refusal was wrong.

For those who chose to help in other ways, such as being a medical orderly, or driving the ambulances found a honourable middle ground, not committing to fighting but committing to the preservation of the wounded and dying soldiers, the others chose to do nothing
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Jim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet isn't the right to say "No, I do not support war and I will do nothing to aid it" a perfectly acceptable position, whether one agrees with it or not?


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