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LeClerc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Hello Bernie

bnabernard wrote:


Quite a reasonable argument JMC, which still leaves you with the measure of in your face v secret not in your face, therefore given that the Pharisees did not witness but heard, from obscure sources, even what they might term uneducated sources the reasoning of the Pharisees starts to gain credence.
bernard (hug)


Luke 5
12 Once, when Yeshua was in one of the towns, there came a man completely covered with tzara‘at. On seeing Yeshua, he fell on his face and begged him, “Sir, if you are willing, you can make me clean.” 13 Yeshua reached out his hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing! Be cleansed!” Immediately the tzara‘at left him. 14 Then Yeshua warned him not to tell anyone. “Instead, as a testimony to the people, go straight to the cohen and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moshe commanded.”

Why did Y'shua send the one cleansed of tzar'at to the cohen ?

When they did not believe Y'shua, Y'shua sent them ten.

Luke 17
11 On his way to Yerushalayim, Yeshua passed along the border country between Shomron and the Galil. 12 As he entered one of the villages, ten men afflicted with tzara‘at met him. They stood at a distance 13 and called out, “Yeshua! Rabbi! Have pity on us!” 14 On seeing them, he said, “Go and let the cohanim examine you!” And as they went, they were cleansed.

You seem to fail to understand the significance of this Bernie.

Regards

LeClerc
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JMC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnabernard wrote:

Quite a reasonable argument JMC, which still leaves you with the measure of in your face v secret not in your face, therefore given that the Pharisees did not witness but heard...


No, they witnessed:

Mark 3:1-6
Matthew 9:2-7
Mark 1:21-28 (healing done inside the synagogue - if the Pharisees weren't there then what were they doing on the Sabbath?)
Luke 13:10-17
Luke 14:1-6 (<== quite illustrative as to why those who witnessed Jesus' miracles might still reject Him)
Luke 22:50-51

Plus John 11:45-48 states explicitly that the pharisees and high priests did believe Jesus' miracles (after all, the verses above show they witnessed some of them) and that the reason for rejecting Him was purely down to fear of losing power.

These are just a few examples where the Pharisees, scribes and leaders of synagogues are explicitly mentioned as witnessing Christ's miracles. They are only needed if you assume all the times Jesus performed miracles in front of "crowds" that there were not one pharisee present - which is not very reasonable or believable.
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, they witnessed:

Mark 3:1-6
Matthew 9:2-7
Mark 1:21-28 (healing done inside the synagogue - if the Pharisees weren't there then what were they doing on the Sabbath?)
Luke 13:10-17
Luke 14:1-6 (<== quite illustrative as to why those who witnessed Jesus' miracles might still reject Him)
Luke 22:50-51

Plus John 11:45-48 states explicitly that the pharisees and high priests did believe Jesus' miracles (after all, the verses above show they witnessed some of them) and that the reason for rejecting Him was purely down to fear of losing power.

These are just a few examples where the Pharisees, scribes and leaders of synagogues are explicitly mentioned as witnessing Christ's miracles. They are only needed if you assume all the times Jesus performed miracles in front of "crowds" that there were not one pharisee present - which is not very reasonable or believable.



JMC wrote:
bnabernard wrote:

The resulting outcome is that Israel becomes divided by witness, those that saw and those who did not...


Except that the pharisees (and others who rejected Him as the Christ, persecuted Him, and crucified Him) did witness Jesus' miracles; they didn't say that He didn't perform miracles, but that He did so by the power of demons and/or did so on the Sabbath day. The division was not to do with witness of miracles v not witnessing miracles.



So what you are saying is that they witnessed Jesus works but were able to discredit them, this would need the help from those who had not witnessed them, especialy as God is said to have announced Jesus as his only begoten son.
Distrust of voices from heaven perhaps.
Not according to Saul who was quite enamered by a voice from heaven.

You seem to not get the point of in your face actions carried out by Moses, against the so called miracles of Jesus, and I say so called on behalf of those Jews who had not seen them, the word of one  or maybe two, two the required witness, why should a pharisee feel put out, if he turns to Jesus then he is on a par with those that followed Moses, if not then they are on a par with those that were destroyed for not following Moses.

So to re-cap you say that the Pharisees witnessed the works of Jesus and condemed them as the works of the devil to the point of saying voices from heaven are the voice of the devil.

bernard (hug)
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JMC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So what you are saying is that they witnessed Jesus works but were able to discredit them...


No, not discredit: they didn't deny they happened, just that Jesus should not have performed these miracles on the Sabbath and/or that the work was done by demons. And I'm not saying that, I am pointing out what is contained in the Gospels.


bnabernard wrote:

So to re-cap you say that the Pharisees witnessed the works of Jesus and condemed them as the works of the devil...


The Gospels say that's what happened. My "not getting the point" is simply down to your point being based on the pretext that those who rejected Jesus didn't see His miracles. That simply isn't true, so that's why I'm not bothering to address your point "main point: it is predicated on something's that not true.

Or are you now saying that those who rejected Christ were made up of some people (inc. pharisees) who saw His miracles, but didn't believe His claims regardless?
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gone
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok JMC, thanks for explaining that.

So what we are left with is as I said in the initial post, the whole of a nation experiencing the miacles of God performed through Moses, passing through the sea when faced with slaughter and much mugh more, compared to a rather lack luster demonstration by Jesus that relied on word of mouth and a rather hit and miss campaign.

bernard (hug)
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JMC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and Aaron's rule - therefore I don't see any connection between the manner of wonders done and people believing. The only distinction you've made was between witnessing and not witnessing, but that was shown to be not true.
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JMC wrote:
Some of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and Aaron's rule - therefore I don't see any connection between the manner of wonders done and people believing. The only distinction you've made was between witnessing and not witnessing, but that was shown to be not true.



So you are saying the witness was comparable, ehm, and you also reckon we make saints of people who climb into wells full of snakes and scorpions and disobey their mother, or alternatively, nip over to a muslim country and get up thier nose so they kill you.

Yes JMC, seeing any connection must be a strain.

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JMC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not saying the witness is comparable; I am saying that the result was comparable: some trusted Moses, some did not; some trusted Christ, some did not. Who did, and who did not, trust in Moses and Jesus appears to have nothing to do with whether they saw miracles performed or not. You have not shown otherwise. Your references to another thread reek of an ad hominen attack, which hints that the reason you haven't shown otherwise is because you can't.

You could always try again at making your link without making remarks about the gullibility of another poster. It's not all that difficult actually, though I do understand the temptation to call/think someone who doesn't agree with you stupid/gullible/dishonest/deluded/insane etc. But it is just that: a temptation, and temptations to think this way don't come from God.
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JMC wrote:
I am not saying the witness is comparable; I am saying that the result was comparable: some trusted Moses, some did not; some trusted Christ, some did not. Who did, and who did not, trust in Moses and Jesus appears to have nothing to do with whether they saw miracles performed or not. You have not shown otherwise. Your references to another thread reek of an ad hominen attack, which hints that the reason you haven't shown otherwise is because you can't.

I see so the scenario with Moses is, '' I don't trust this bloke, we got the Egyptians behind us and this bloody great sea in front of us'' followed by '' fluke, don't know how he did it but there's something about this guy I still don't trust''
If of course you are refering to those who lost faith when he was seemingly not coming back then that is a completely different emotion to not trusting him in his presence.
Anyone had an option to leave Moses, but lets face it, a coloumb of fire at night and dust by day, they may not have liked the judgement but they new exactly how and why they stood.
As for Jesus mistrust was to his face and as I say, isolated happenings, and as Leclerc says, Jesus had to send messages to the cohen (?) So not in your face like Moses and questionable therefore breeding mistrust



You could always try again at making your link without making remarks about the gullibility of another poster. It's not all that difficult actually, though I do understand the temptation to call/think someone who doesn't agree with you stupid/gullible/dishonest/deluded/insane etc. But it is just that: a temptation, and temptations to think this way don't come from God.


Well you might have a point but I would say theres plenty of references to dishonesty gullibility delusion and stupidity and even insanity etc in the bible, and warnings against letting any of the above havin control in ones life, I could have course be mistaken but I feel not, and as such I believe the warnings against these things does originate source from God who loves us and cares for our direction.
And we might remember Hypocrites and Saul


bernard (hug)

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