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Truth and Belief
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Perfectly clear. So, the point he is making is that people in situations which are in no way comparable behave in completely different ways. hmmm

Why aren't they comparable?


You told me they aren't!

Indeed - a statement of fact with regard to Barker's quote.

Now I'm asking you why - according to you - they're not comparable. What is it about apprehending reality that's different for people attending church services compared to scientists doing science?
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Perfectly clear. So, the point he is making is that people in situations which are in no way comparable behave in completely different ways. hmmm

Why aren't they comparable?


You told me they aren't!

Indeed - a statement of fact with regard to Barker's quote.

Now I'm asking you why - according to you - they're not comparable. What is it about apprehending reality that's different for people attending church services compared to scientists doing science?


People of faith have never claimed that their beliefs are proven in the same way that scientific knowledge is. What I am contesting is that that amounts to insecurity. He makes an untested and unreasoned assertion that singing about something you believe indicates insecurity in that belief.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
People of faith have never claimed that their beliefs are proven in the same way that scientific knowledge is

Which is interesting given the fact, historically, how many believers how often have acted somewhat inconsistently in this regard, appearing to be possessed of so much absolute and steadfast certainty of the manifest truth and rightness of their beliefs that other people can be persecuted, tortured and murdered in the most baroque ways in their furtherance.

Quote:
What I am contesting is that that amounts to insecurity. He makes an untested and unreasoned assertion that singing about something you believe indicates insecurity in that belief.

I don't see what's unreasoned about it - nor, for that matter, that it's untested given his experience and expertise in such matters. I admit that I haven't read his autobiography - I would very much like to and wish I had - but I know enough of him and his background to be able to state this with a certainty.
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The Boyg
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
I don't see what's unreasoned about it - nor, for that matter, that it's untested given his experience and expertise in such matters.


The funny thing is that I don't normally see you championing people's expertise in matters of faith as a consequence of their experience as a Christian pastor.

Perhaps it's only the ex-Christian ones, who's opinions happen to coincide with your own, who are "experts"?
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Boyg wrote:
The funny thing is that I don't normally see you championing people's expertise in matters of faith as a consequence of their experience as a Christian pastor.

I haven't the faintest idea of what expertise in "faith" is or would look like - I was referring to the fact that he was a pious Charismatic preacher for nineteen years and so I feel it's not, on balance, an unreasonable supposition to presume that in those almost two decades he would have met and mingled with a large group of people and in so doing would have discussed their beliefs with them.

This is knowledge of people, not so-called expertise in the bizarre will-o'-the-wisps and ignes fatui they allege that they believe in.

Quote:
Perhaps it's only the ex-Christian ones, who's opinions happen to coincide with your own, who are "experts"?


You know, it's frankly quite amazing just how often that seems to happen.
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The Boyg
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
The funny thing is that I don't normally see you championing people's expertise in matters of faith as a consequence of their experience as a Christian pastor.

I was referring to the fact that he was a pious Charismatic preacher for nineteen years and so I feel it's not, on balance, an unreasonable supposition to presume that in those almost two decades he would have met and mingled with a large group of people and in so doing would have discussed their beliefs with them.


So, since this is about direct experience, then presumably you'd be just as willing to accept the expertise of a practising Christian pastor with regard to the strength, or otherwise, of the faith of believers.

Strange then that you would casually dismiss my testimony of my direct, personal  experience of over 40 years of Christian faith as "anecdote" when it's no more anecdotal than the experience that you claim validates Barker's opinion.


Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps it's only the ex-Christian ones, who's opinions happen to coincide with your own, who are "experts"?

You know, it's frankly quite amazing just how often that seems to happen.


Hardly. I don't find it remarkable at all that you unsceptically accept the "expertise" of people simply because their opinions happen to coincide with your own.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Boyg wrote:
So, since this is about direct experience, then presumably you'd be just as willing to accept the expertise of a practising Christian pastor with regard to the strength, or otherwise, of the faith of believers.

I'd be flabbergasted if you could find such an individual.

As I've noted in other threads here before, when you start to apply a modicum of critical pressure to these things and ask people what they actually purport to believe, they fold faster than a cheap deckchair.

Quote:
Strange then that you would casually dismiss my testimony of my direct, personal  experience of over 40 years of Christian faith as "anecdote" when it's no more anecdotal than the experience that you claim validates Barker's opinion.

Not strange at all; see my previous reply - the second paragraph especially - for the reason why.

Quote:
Hardly. I don't find it remarkable at all that you unsceptically accept the "expertise" of people simply because their opinions happen to coincide with your own.

Oh dear me no no no, there's nothing I accept unsceptically, I sincerely hope - if I did that I would be ... well, I'd be you, wouldn't I?

The thing that really matters is whether it comports with reason, logic and experience.

You're welcome  
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The Boyg
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
So, since this is about direct experience, then presumably you'd be just as willing to accept the expertise of a practising Christian pastor with regard to the strength, or otherwise, of the faith of believers.

I'd be flabbergasted if you could find such an individual.


You'd be flabbergasted if I could find a practising Christian pastor of 20+ years experience willing to offer an opinion on the strength of faith of those who attend religious services?




Quote:
Not strange at all; see my previous reply - the second paragraph especially - for the reason why.


Yes, you accept Barker's experience as "expertise" but dismiss my experience as "anecdote" because of your prejudices.


Quote:
Oh dear me no no no, there's nothing I accept unsceptically


You have in this case. You say that Barker's expertise to make assertions about the strength of faith of those who attend religious services should be accepted because of his years of experience as a Christian pastor when any sceptic worthy of the name would recognise this as simply a fallacious argument from authority.
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Shakey is writing about the atheist church and the crimes against humanity that atheists are known for. Famous atheists such as Pol Pot, Mao, Lenin, Ceausescu, and the famous Castro brothers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eJ6q1a6aDbA
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7RHmsg86G0
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not for the first time and certainly not for the last, your belief is false.

This particular canard is so wincingly easily skinned, gutted, boned, wrapped up in yesterday's newspapers and put in the dustbin, but let's just see if you get there first before I come in to whoop yo ass spank your bottom on this one.


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