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That's Christianity for you
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: That's Christianity for you  Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
But to claim that Christianity teaches us that we are "dumb" and that we are "nothing", etc. is not a point, it is bullshit.


Apparently not all Christians see it that way, not at all, by any means.


I'm not sure that finding such examples really proves anything.

I mean - if I were to find an example of someone describing himself as a scientist and arguing that all disabled children should be killed at birth, would that tell us anything at all about what science teaches us?
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: That's Christianity for you Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
I'm not sure that finding such examples really proves anything.

It proves that your earlier comment was wrong.

If you want to retort that Christianity doesn't teach what the people in those few examples state (I found reams more, by the way, but they're immensely depressing and I posted a few just to give a flavour of the sort of thing I meant), where else did they get it from and why are they espousing such beliefs in the context of Christianity?

Quote:
I mean - if I were to find an example of someone describing himself as a scientist and arguing that all disabled children should be killed at birth, would that tell us anything at all about what science teaches us?

Science doesn't teach at all but shows, or describes, or reveals, or whichever word you care to use, but teach is the wrong one - it's a methodology, a tool if you like, for finding stuff out.

I thought Christianity on the other hand was supposed to be a teaching or a body of teachings?
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cyberman
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: That's Christianity for you Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
I'm not sure that finding such examples really proves anything.

It proves that your earlier comment was wrong.

If you want to retort that Christianity doesn't teach what the people in those few examples state, where else did they get it from and why are they espousing such beliefs in the context of Christianity?

Quote:
I mean - if I were to find an example of someone describing himself as a scientist and arguing that all disabled children should be killed at birth, would that tell us anything at all about what science teaches us?

Science doesn't teach at all but shows, or describes, or reveals, or whichever word you care to use, but teach is the wrong one - it's a methodology, a tool if you like.

I thought Christianity on the other hand was supposed to be a teaching or a body of teachings?


OK, Prof Pedanticus:

If I were to find an example of someone describing himself as a scientist and arguing that all disabled children should be killed at birth, would that tell us anything at all about what is the case "according to science"?
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: That's Christianity for you Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
OK, Prof Pedanticus

That's me!

Quote:
If I were to find an example of someone describing himself as a scientist and arguing that all disabled children should be killed at birth, would that tell us anything at all about what is the case "according to science"?

Absolutely not at all. That belief held by that scientist would be an opinion which comes from somewhere else other than science, somewhere outside of science. Some scientists have undoubtedly held such beliefs, incidentally and independently. We know that science has been invoked - wrongly; illegitimately - in support of eugenic and, let's face it, basically racist ideas. At risk of invoking Godwin's Law the Nazis were very keen in the 1930s on the supposedly scientific, anthropological basis of their ideology.

But my use of that word is a telling thing: what drove and drives such beliefs isn't science, which is essentially a descriptive thing, but extra-scientific ideological beliefs from elsewhere, from philosophy and politics and religion. Science won't, doesn't, can't tell you that darkies and kikes are inferior and subhuman lesser races undeserving of the light of the sun and fresh air in their lungs, but a toxic mix of philosophy, politics and religion can.

And, unfortunately, did/has.

So. Are you saying that people who believe that they are nothing without Jesus are likewise getting such a belief from outside of Christianity?
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IvyOwl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketty wrote:


You haven't the special knowledge so you're bound to say that.  


Ah but some of us here did used to have the 'special knowledge' of which you speak. Believe it or not I do know exactly where you are coming from. Been there done that, spoke to lots of people of all faiths and none, read books, learnt and inwardly digested all the data and updated my knowledge. Which of course is open to being modified in light of more info.


Please be aware that I'm not dissing your experiences /beliefs. They are 'true' for you and inform the way you lead your life. However I agree with Trent in that some (not all) Christians can come across as insufferable patronising in their insistance that their 'special knowledge' is somehow universally applicable and that those who don't share it are somehow lacking.

Pondering such questions as the 'divine' the source if you like, where did we come from, is there an intelligence that called the universe into being, etc etc I find the god of the bible spectacularly lacking. Neurocience and quantum physics are far more informative and helpful. But that's me I'm not saying that's the right way to go about it it's just the way that suits me. I don't spend time hoping that one day you or any other Christians of my acquaintance will 'see the light' and come over to my way of thinking. Well only if they go into 'evangelising one trueway mode'.

I have to say it was rather satisfying to have this omnipotent judgmental figure (albeit one that had forgiven my sins and loved me really) that had been so sucessfully implanted in my psyche shrink to nothing. To have him out of the way and no longer blocking my view of the glory and wonder of the universe!
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a lovely, touching, heart-warming post, IO  
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, many atheists like to go around telling us that we lack common sense, reason, the ability to think for ourselves.
Now what was that about Christians saying the non Christians are lacking? Too funny

Yes Shaker I agree, Darwin's The Descent of Man, was not science but a toxic evil philosophy.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Run along powsers, the grown-ups are talking.
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The grown up may be talking but the peanut gallery is posting.That would be your little gallery Shaker.

Yes, it is a fact many atheists accuse the Christian of lacking and The Descent of Man is a Toxic unscientific book.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: That's Christianity for you Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
We know that science has been invoked - wrongly; illegitimately - in support of eugenic and, let's face it, basically racist ideas. At risk of invoking Godwin's Law the Nazis were very keen in the 1930s on the supposedly scientific, anthropological basis of their ideology.


Another rather desperate attempt to blame religion for..well, everything!

I'm afraid it doesn't hold water. You used the example of racism instead of sticking with my example of eugenics regarding disability.

A scientist might state that all seriously ill and/or disabled children should be killed for the good of future generations. She might argue this because of what she has learned about genes and heredity. what is your rationale for claiming that these ideas come from 'not-science'?

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