nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index nglreturns.myfreeforum.org
Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Love rules...even if you're gay!
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Please Register and Login to this forum to stop seeing this advertising.






Posted:     Post subject:

Back to top
Ketty
Moderator


Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 7376


Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:22 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
... knew about because either (a) actively created or (b) passively allowed by him, presumably?


In the context within which we're talking, neither.
_________________
<><Although Christians and Mormons use the same words such as grace, faith, God and sin, they mean very different things by them. Beware the poison!><>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaker
Site Admin


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8694



PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Innit just, Leonardo, innit just  

But this on-off/flip-flop approach to God's list of cans and can'ts is one of the more egregious examples. Frinstance:

CAN:

- bring forth a universe out of absolutely nothing by means and methods unspecified (in other words, magic);

- suspend/bend/break the laws of physics (which is to say, magic);

- assume human form but cheat death by resurrection (i.e. magic again);

CAN'T:

- undertake the (to my mind at least infinitesimally easier task) of arranging events such that, for example, missing 14 year-old girls are found alive, safe, well and happy. An entity who can supposedly do the CAN list without breaking into a sweat could presumably do something like this, almost infinitely far down on the scale of tasks, with nary a first let alone second thought in the Divine Mind. It doesn't tie up that a theistic deity is invoked for one set of things so far back in the distant past that you can't touch it with the evidence-o-meter but always given a pass when it comes to anything we could actually probe.  

Eeh, what some people believe!
_________________
There’s no reason to be agnostic about ideas that are dramatically incompatible with everything we know about modern science. - Sean M. Carroll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leonard James
Senior Community Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 3963


Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
If you can convince yourself that this God can arbitrarily subject people to all kinds of pain and suffering and yet still love them, then your ability to reason is seriously impaired!

Frankly Lenny I've very often thought of theism as a form of Stockholm Syndrome.


It's all very confusing, but I suppose somewhere back in prehistory it was a strategy for survival, or it wouldn't be there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shaker
Site Admin


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8694



PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leonard James wrote:
It's all very confusing, but I suppose somewhere back in prehistory it was a strategy for survival, or it wouldn't be there.

Perhaps so - that seems to be the evolutionary approach that most people in the relevant fields favour, i.e. that it had some sort of advantage then which is superfluous today.
_________________
There’s no reason to be agnostic about ideas that are dramatically incompatible with everything we know about modern science. - Sean M. Carroll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaker
Site Admin


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8694



PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketty wrote:
Shaker wrote:
... knew about because either (a) actively created or (b) passively allowed by him, presumably?


In the context within which we're talking, neither.

Which context specifically? If you believe in a theistic god (deistic one obviously doesn't apply) then what third option is there?
_________________
There’s no reason to be agnostic about ideas that are dramatically incompatible with everything we know about modern science. - Sean M. Carroll


Last edited by Shaker on Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leonard James
Senior Community Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 3963


Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
Innit just, Leonardo, innit just  

But this on-off/flip-flop approach to God's list of cans and can'ts is one of the more egregious examples. Frinstance:

CAN:

- bring forth a universe out of absolutely nothing by means and methods unspecified (in other words, magic);

- suspend/bend/break the laws of physics (which is to say, magic);

- assume human form but cheat death by resurrection (i.e. magic again);

CAN'T:

- undertake the (to my mind at least infinitesimally easier task) of arranging events such that, for example, missing 14 year-old girls are found alive, safe, well and happy. An entity who can supposedly do the CAN list without breaking into a sweat could presumably do something like this, almost infinitely far down on the scale of tasks, with nary a first let alone second thought in the Divine Mind. It doesn't tie up that a theistic deity is invoked for one set of things so far back in the distant past that you can't touch it with the evidence-o-meter but always given a pass when it comes to anything we could actually probe.  

Eeh, what some people believe!


Well, as long as we make sure they do no harm to others and don't frighten the horses, I suppose we shouldn't worry about it too much.  
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ketty
Moderator


Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 7376


Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
So God is powerful enough to create a cosmos and suspend any of its physical laws at a whim if it's sufficiently far back that there can be no challenge to such a belief, but when it gets down to the real nitty-gritty of being, like, you know, useful in eliminating suffering and increasing the general good, God's straight out of the picture - mighty enough for the one, curiously cack-handed not to say downright silent when it comes to the other.


Creation:  God did it.  Eternity:  God did it.  Here and now, the bit in between: we do it - some of us with Him (and so for some of us we see his miracles, even in amongst life's challenges), and some of us without Him.
_________________
<><Although Christians and Mormons use the same words such as grace, faith, God and sin, they mean very different things by them. Beware the poison!><>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaker
Site Admin


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8694



PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketty wrote:
Creation:  God did it.


Assertion

Quote:
Eternity:  God did it.


Assertion

Quote:
Here and now, the bit in between: we do it - some of us with Him (and so for some of us we see his miracles, even in amongst life's challenges), and some of us without Him.


Why's that then? Is it because that's the bit we could in principle actually see some sign of a goddish power at work but don't? Backwards (creation) and forwards (eternity) are a doddle - you can just say Goddidit and nobody can disprove your assertions. That we're responsible for the way things are right in the here and now - doesn't that strike you as a bit, well, convenient for the God-defender?
_________________
There’s no reason to be agnostic about ideas that are dramatically incompatible with everything we know about modern science. - Sean M. Carroll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ketty
Moderator


Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 7376


Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:

Assertion


You love it when I'm assertive.

Shaker wrote:
Quote:
Here and now, the bit in between: we do it - some of us with Him (and so for some of us we see his miracles, even in amongst life's challenges), and some of us without Him.


Why's that then? Is it because that's the bit we could in principle actually see some sign of a goddish power at work but don't?


Why?  I don't know, it just 'is'.  But yes, in principle some could see God's power at work but don't.  For others of us we do see it - sometime, what would be to others in the tiniest insignificant things, and sometimes, for believers, with might and power.
_________________
<><Although Christians and Mormons use the same words such as grace, faith, God and sin, they mean very different things by them. Beware the poison!><>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaker
Site Admin


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8694



PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketty wrote:
You love it when I'm assertive.



Oooooooh not half!

Quote:
Why?  I don't know, it just 'is'.  But yes, in principle some could see God's power at work but don't.  For others of us we do see it - sometime, what would be to others in the tiniest insignificant things, and sometimes, for believers, with might and power.

So believing is seeing, in other words?


_________________
There’s no reason to be agnostic about ideas that are dramatically incompatible with everything we know about modern science. - Sean M. Carroll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum