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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: What was the point?  Reply with quote

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Ketty
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Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
The theology speak would say something like
Since God is infinitely more than we, and we are made in His image, His capacity to love is infinatly more than we can grasp or comprehend.
Since that same God is creator of all - including time, He is both outside time and involved in history - again, a situation beyond our capacity to explain.
Therefore any meaningful definition of eternity would be limited by our capacity to grasp it, but unlimited due to the infinite nature of the Creator.


Howzat?
I'll eat my porridge now.




I'm about to indulge in my porridge now, made with Alpro almond milk, sliced banana, a few blueberries and a squirt of Sweet Freedom.  Yum!
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Ketty
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: What was the point? Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
Ketty wrote:
cymrudynnion wrote:
... according to the King James Bible ...


Interesting, and rather telling, choice there.  
 

-
Indeed.


Aye Jim.  It's in the little things that people give themselves away.  
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: What was the point? Reply with quote

Ketty wrote:
As for the sicknesses you mention, well, our puny brains from what little we're capable of understanding have tried to give an explanation for all of that.  But in awful techno-jargon, it's all down to the fall of man


Didn't happen. Never happened.

Quote:
and allowing satan

No such thing.

These are just very ancient pseudo-explanations from primitive, let's go ahead and use the word ignorant groups of people trying to make sense of the world with the only conceptual tools they had available to them at that point in time.

This is not that time any more. You'll have to try again.

Since you make so much of our puny litle human brains and how imperfect our understanding of the universe (something that nobody of sense would deny - although I do notice that very often those who make so much of how little we know leap nimbly from knowing little to knowing nothing), why is it that you implicitly at least purport to understand exactly why these things happen (i.e. this twaddle about a fall and the poor old eternal whipping boy, Satan)?
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Ketty
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand enough for me to make sense of it sufficient for my peace.  We look at the same "evidence" and yet we come up with opposing answers.  My answer is: God is love; Satan is love's antithesis.  If somebody does not believe in God, or does not believe in Satan or wants to believe Goddidit in relation to all that is evil in the world, then really it's a waste of our time to play word ping pong over it all.  My sadness is that I'm incapable of illuminating Christ's Gospel message sufficiently for others to have their own God's Holy Spirit 'Eureka!' moment.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketty wrote:
I understand enough for me to make sense of it sufficient for my peace.  We look at the same "evidence" and yet we come up with opposing answers.


That's not at all true and is in fact a prime example of exactly the kind of relativism upon which religionists usually pour all their loathing and execration. There aren't answers which are equally true for Tom and true for Dick and true for Harry save in the most wishy-wishy, limp, subjective sense; there are only actual answers (i.e. ones based in fact) and pseudo-answers. Science deals in the former and religion in the latter.

For any observed phenomenon there are any number - perhaps an infinity, or almost - of pseudo-explanations and at least one (often just one) real explanation. A real explanation is one that actually explains something, not just purports to do so. When the Sun disappears during the daytime it's not, as the ancient Chinese attempted to explain it, because a giant dragon had swallowed it; it's because the Sun is 400 times further away fom Earth than the Moon and at present - though not for ever - the Moon is almost exactly 400 times smaller than the Sun as it appears in the sky so the Moon covers the Sun's disk almost exactly; it's a totally random occurrence that every so often Sun, Moon and Earth are in alignment and cause an eclipse. The Moon is gradually wandering away from its orbit around the Earth at a rate of about 3 - 4cm per year. One day, long long after we're all dead and buried, eclipses won't look as they do today; they look as they do now because coincidentally we occupy this tiny eyeblink of history.

The Chinese idea of the Sun being swallowed by a dragon is an 'explanation'; it's a wrong one. 'Brigitte Bardot' in response to the question 'What's the capital of Vietnam?' is an answer, insofar as it's a response to a query; it's a wrong one. The scientific explanation is the real one, the one that actually explains the observed phenomenon. Everything else is just irrelevant noise.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had my own deity eureka moment when I accepted Christ as the lodestone of my existance.
That was such a relief.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
Ketty wrote:
I understand enough for me to make sense of it sufficient for my peace.  We look at the same "evidence" and yet we come up with opposing answers.


That's not at all true


It's entirely true.

I understand enough for me to make sense of it - is a true statement.

'The same "evidence"'  (insofar as we're able to both read the same words), is a true statement.

'We come up with opposing answers', is self-evidently, true.

Shaker wrote:
, and is in fact a prime example of exactly the kind of relativism upon which religionists usually pour all their loathing and execration.


Subjective, and the same could be said of anti-religionists.  (Actually, I'm also anti-religion, but that's a whole new discussion).

Shaker wrote:
There aren't answers which are equally true for Tom and true for Dick and true for Harry save in the most wishy-wishy, limp, subjective sense; there are only actual answers (i.e. ones based in fact) and pseudo-answers. Science deals in the former and religion in the latter.


There are answers that are true, and there are the answers we want to believe.  God's Truth is not one that many want to believe.  That, for me, is the top and bottom of it.

Shaker wrote:
For any observed phenomenon there are any number - perhaps an infinity, or almost - of pseudo-explanations and at least one (often just one) real explanation. A real explanation is one that actually explains something, not just purports to do so. When the Sun disappears during the daytime it's not, as the ancient Chinese attempted to explain it, because a giant dragon had swallowed it; it's because the Sun is 400 times further away fom Earth than the Moon and at present - though not for ever - the Moon is almost exactly 400 times smaller than the Sun as it appears in the sky so the Moon covers the Sun's disk almost exactly; it's a totally random occurrence that every so often Sun, Moon and Earth are in alignment and cause an eclipse. The Moon is gradually wandering away from its orbit around the Earth at a rate of about 3 - 4cm per year. One day, long long after we're all dead and buried, eclipses won't look as they do today; they look as they do now because coincidentally we occupy this tiny eyeblink of history.

The Chinese idea of the Sun being swallowed by a dragon is an 'explanation'; it's a wrong one. 'Brigitte Bardot' in response to the question 'What's the capital of Vietnam?' is an answer, insofar as it's a response to a query; it's a wrong one. The scientific explanation is the real one, the one that actually explains the observed phenomenon. Everything else is just irrelevant noise.


And that's when, for me, the circular debate returns to matters of faith and a Scripture that is very personal to me and my own Holy Spirit eureka moment: Hebrews 11.  

We look at the same things and yet see them differently.  C'est la vie.


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