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Ketty
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Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:54 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Jim wrote:

He is God Incarnate, second Person of God, who is Triune in nature.
He is God, as per John's Gospel (several mentions), the synoptics - through His actions;
And through what Paul wrote in Colossians.
I don't need a man made theologian, bishop, pop, minister or elder to tell me that.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say Mary was anything other than a wife and mother.
We don't know the name of her mum, gran, budgie or her skirt size.
We don't need to.
Any adoration of Mary takes away from the Glory of God.



Exactly, Jim.

Paul, maybe it's you who is embarrassed by the thought that your 'blessed Theotokos' enjoyed the gift from God of very normal and enjoyable rumpy pumpy with her husband, and as a consequence maybe you are of the misogynist mind that her womb, cervix, vagina and labia were somehow 'dirtied' by the, also God given act, of bloody childbirth?  Maybe you are embarrassed at the fact God's creation is sometimes orgasmic, bloody or painful, but very real, and human, and wonderfully earthy? All that matters not: the fact is it is only some men who set themselves up as leaders of their particular denominations of church who chose and continue to choose to gloss over the reality of Christ's mother being a real woman, wife, and mummy to several children - one is left with the only conclusion it is because they cannot accept the idea that to be truly human (especially woman ?) ordained and created by God is to be celebrated.  

Christ's birth mother was a normal and Godly woman who was the wife and sexual partner to one man, gave birth to the Messiah prior to beginning the regular sexual relationship with her husband, and was the birth mother to other children  - ref: the Bible.  For some branches of church to teach otherwise is anti-Biblical probably based on misogyny and maybe the need to metaphorically practice FGM in order to create an 'acceptable' asexual and 'clean' dolly?

No question that Mary was blessed because the Bible tells us so; she was also a saint - a living stone of her time, because the Bible tells us so; in addition to these facts she was a regular and Godly woman, wife and mother, because the Bible tells us so.  God's plan is/was for the very real and human Messiah, to be born in a very real and human way, by a very real and human woman - part of the lesson being that if His creation, the very real and human life is good and acceptable in His sight, then we are charged with seeing it in the same way.  If we are in Christ all shame in being very real and human, is gone.
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Paul
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then. That puts you against the whole history of the Church. I know where I put my money, but then there's no point discussing these things with protestants. They're too far gone.
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Jim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly the political thinkers in the church needed something to focus the minds of a semi-literate or totally illiterate populace who were fixated on mother goddess figures such as athene, Isis, Venus, etc. The natural candidate was Mary.
Some of the early images of Mary with the infant Christ show a virtually identical aspect to those of Ptolemaic and Hellenistic images of Isis nursing the infant Horus; Isis being a mystery cult gnosticised by the greeks from an existing cult in Egypt.
The church went overboard....the rest is history, not theology.
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Paul
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
Possibly the political thinkers in the church needed something to focus the minds of a semi-literate or totally illiterate populace who were fixated on mother goddess figures such as athene, Isis, Venus, etc. The natural candidate was Mary.
Some of the early images of Mary with the infant Christ show a virtually identical aspect to those of Ptolemaic and Hellenistic images of Isis nursing the infant Horus; Isis being a mystery cult gnosticised by the greeks from an existing cult in Egypt.
The church went overboard....the rest is history, not theology.


Sure, if you see the Church as a merely human institution. I wouldn't. Nor does Christ. Nor does the Apostle.

"But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you."

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth."

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."
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genghiscant
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Well then. That puts you against the whole history of the Church. I know where I put my money, but then there's no point discussing these things with protestants. They're too far gone.


There, in a nutshell, is the root of all religious intolerance.
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Paul
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genghiscant wrote:
Paul wrote:
Well then. That puts you against the whole history of the Church. I know where I put my money, but then there's no point discussing these things with protestants. They're too far gone.


There, in a nutshell, is the root of all religious intolerance.


Sometimes there has to be a point, where there is no common ground, when discussion becomes futile.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Paul wrote:
Well then. That puts you against the whole history of the Church. I know where I put my money, but then there's no point discussing these things with protestants. They're too far gone.


There, in a nutshell, is the root of all religious intolerance.


Sometimes there has to be a point, where there is no common ground, when discussion becomes futile.

How nice it would be to think that people would leave it at that and part with their own beliefs intact and with the willingness to live and let live, instead of seeing it as their bounden duty to persecute and even torture and kill others for having slight variations in their daft ideas.
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Paul
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And no one is advocating that. All we say is confess the orthodox faith, then come back and we can have a more fruitful discussion.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
And no one is advocating that.

Rather a lot of people have advocated just that. And, since you're evidently not a follower of news and current affairs, I'm afraid that there are non-negligible amounts of people in the world now who advocate it.

Quote:
All we say is confess the orthodox faith, then come back and we can have a more fruitful discussion.

Or: "Believe what I believe first, and then we'll talk"?
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Paul
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
Rather a lot of people have advocated just that. And, since you're evidently not a follower of news and current affairs, I'm afraid that there are non-negligible amounts of people in the world now who advocate it.


Sure, but it's not Orthodoxy that's doing it. It's Islam for the most part. But then that religion is essentially founded on it.


Quote:
Or: "Believe what I believe first, and then we'll talk"?


As far as Orthodoxy is concerned, more-or-less.

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