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Christopher Hitchens dies.
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cyberman
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
I do not think that being an atheist gets you sent to hell. You have claimed that this is Catholic teaching, but you have failed to supply a source which supports your claim.


Come on cyberman! Have you never read the Bible?


Of good lord. Again, the RCC is not a fundamentalist church (that means we are not Biblical literalists). That's how come a Catholic priest came up with the Big Bang theory. That's how come a Catholic brother came up with genetics.

We eat pork. We believe in evolution. We are not fundamentalists. Pointing out that something is in the Bible is not the same as proving that we believe it.

I know this pisses you off. You wish we were all fundies because that would be so much easier for you to attack. But, rant and rail as you will, we are not. I
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SceptiKarl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman:

Quote:
Of good lord. Again, the RCC is not a fundamentalist church (that means we are not Biblical literalists).


I accept that the RCC don't go with the 6 day creation and other silly notions put forward by the YECs. But they still believe that all humans are tainted because of Adam's sin and that a man who was God's son, came to Earth to "redeem" us, was executed and later came back to life on the third day and then floated off to heaven to join his father. From my POV a talking snake is more believeable.

Quote:
That's how come a Catholic priest came up with the Big Bang theory. That's how come a Catholic brother came up with genetics.


Thanks for the references to Lemaitre (big bang), and Mendel (what we now know as genetics). You forgot to mention that most brilliant of Catholic scientists, Galileo, without whom Newton, and modern science generally, would have had to do a lot more work.

Quote:
We eat pork. We believe in evolution. We are not fundamentalists. Pointing out that something is in the Bible is not the same as proving that we believe it
.

Yes, I accept that. But how do you know about which bits of the Bible are "right" and which bits to ignore? Previously we have crossed swords about the Biblical attitude towards: killing witches; slavery; taxation and probably a few others. In each instance I have given you Biblical citations. So how do you choose? As far as I know, there is no prohibition of artificial contraception in the Bible, yet the RCC, no doubt with the authority of St Peter's ring, has decided that Catholics sin if they use it. It seems that most Catholics in the more advanced countries simply ignore this prohibition, - but surely at the cost of their immortal souls?

Quote:
I know this pisses you off. You wish we were all fundies because that would be so much easier for you to attack. But, rant and rail as you will, we are not. I


Thank you very much for your permission, for me to express my opinions on this message board. Very Christian of you!

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cyberman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SceptiKarl wrote:

Quote:
I know this pisses you off. You wish we were all fundies because that would be so much easier for you to attack. But, rant and rail as you will, we are not.


Thank you very much for your permission, for me to express my opinions on this message board. Very Christian of you!


Just to clarify, "rant and rail as you will" is not presuming to give you permission to do so, it is pointing out that doing so will make no difference.

Regarding Adam - you know that I do not believe him to have been an actual person (along with most other Christians), yet you still maintain that I believe he sinned...?
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SceptiKarl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman:

Quote:
Just to clarify, "rant and rail as you will" is not presuming to give you permission to do so, it is pointing out that doing so will make no difference.


Sorry if I misinterpreted your "rant and rail" comment. I would hope that any person who is willing to think for themselves, would also be capable of changing their minds if fresh information came to hand. Certainly, the scientific method relies on the possibility of being shown to be wrong at any point. I am willing to be shown wrong, and admit my mistakes. Apparently cyberman's mind is made up and whatever I say will "make no difference".

There's "faith" in a nutshell.  "I believe it because I believe it!"

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cyberman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SceptiKarl wrote:
Apparently cyberman's mind is made up and whatever I say will "make no difference".

There's "faith" in a nutshell.  "I believe it because I believe it!"


No, Karl - again you have not read what I have written. If you provide compelling reasons for me to change my beliefs, of course that would make a difference. What I said was, ranting and railing about the fact that I do not believe the Bible to be literally true will not make me believe it to be literally true.

And now the question for you to dodge:
Can you specify any post of mine which you think can be justly paraphrased as  "I believe it because I believe it!" ?
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SceptiKarl
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman:

Quote:
What I said was, ranting and railing about the fact that I do not believe the Bible to be literally true will not make me believe it to be literally true.


Fair enough. Maybe I mistook your remarks to mean that whatever I said would have no influence on you. However, you seem to be saying that a change of mind might be possible. That's admirable, IMO.

Quote:
And now the question for you to dodge:
Can you specify any post of mine which you think can be justly paraphrased as  "I believe it because I believe it!" ?


If you look at my words, I was referring to "faith", not to cyberman in particular. So the need to specify any particular post of cyberman citing the above sentiment appears redundant.

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cyberman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SceptiKarl wrote:

Quote:
And now the question for you to dodge:
Can you specify any post of mine which you think can be justly paraphrased as  "I believe it because I believe it!" ?


If you look at my words, I was referring to "faith", not to cyberman in particular. So the need to specify any particular post of cyberman citing the above sentiment appears redundant.


I have looked at your words, as per your suggestion. You referred to me and my response, then you said "There's faith in a nutshell". What did you mean by "there's"? I think you were indeed referring to me and my words. As predicted, you have dodged the question. And not very artfully either.
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SceptiKarl
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman:

Quote:
I have looked at your words, as per your suggestion. You referred to me and my response, then you said "There's faith in a nutshell". What did you mean by "there's"? I think you were indeed referring to me and my words. As predicted, you have dodged the question. And not very artfully either.


Yes I'm sure Jesus will give you an extra dose of paradise for your shrewd dissection of my words. "Faith in a nutshell" means believing stuff for which there is no evidence. Now please present the evidence for the ressurection. Ta.  
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Boss Cat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this for Cyberman or can we all join in?  Well, here's my twopennorthworth.

What evidence could there be? What people said?

Personally if I want to know what happened or what's happening I listen to what people say if I have to, but I pay more attention to who's saying it, why they are saying it and what they do.  I know I go on about it but I have listened to a lot - a LOT - of stories and I've learnt that people lie.

If I overhear Bill telling his boss he never touches a drop I believe him. But if, as I pass his house every Monday morning I notice that he is what we call 'an enthusiastic recycler' I tend to get suspicious.  If I see him handing out fivers and laughing like a maniac the next morning I tend to think he is being less than honest.

What the disciples tell us is unbelievable (if you are a complete materialist) or very hard to believe indeed (if, like me, you accept the possibilty of something outside the natural).  So I look at what happened and what happened is the church and a body of work in a uniquely innovative literary style.  And I look at motivation, and there was motivation for the disciples to lie, at least initially, before going home to obscurity.  They wouldn't look quite as silly.  But what did they get out of lying, and sticking to their lies in the long term?  Not a lot: persecution, imprisonment, torture and death.

Now this isn't proof, and  no evidence would convince you if you just don't believe in the possibility of any extra-natural influence (or other natural explanations, like Jesus being the next stage in evolution, which I have heard).  But to me the new, fast growing Church, the Gospels, the actions of the disciples, well that's evidence that something happened, something different, something astonishing and yes, that could have been Resurrection.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SceptiKarl wrote:
Now please present the evidence for the ressurection. Ta.  


I often ask you for evidence to back up your assertions. It is only fair you do the same.

So, produce the post wherein I have asserted the ressurection to be a fact, and I'll be right there with the evidence.

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