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Isaiah 53:
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Isa 53:12   Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors


Well if it refers to Jesus/Yeshua then he gets a portion, the I and the he certainly pose a problem for LC when he has only one YHWH    and as regards to God intercedeing with himself  

Two Gods or what  

bernard (hug)
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnabernard wrote:
Isa 53:12   Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors


Well if it refers to Jesus/Yeshua then he gets a portion, the I and the he certainly pose a problem for LC when he has only one YHWH    and as regards to God intercedeing with himself  

Two Gods or what  

bernard (hug)


Still in the past tense there Bern - all this had happened before the books were written....
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farmer Geddon wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Isa 53:12   Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors


Well if it refers to Jesus/Yeshua then he gets a portion, the I and the he certainly pose a problem for LC when he has only one YHWH    and as regards to God intercedeing with himself  

Two Gods or what  

bernard (hug)


Still in the past tense there Bern - all this had happened before the books were written....


Bit debateble though cos of the 'will' and 'shall' cos it can relate propheticaly and work backwards to a future even, not so cut and dried as it might seem, however that may not be what you mean, me I was never much good at that sort of thing anyway  

I just plod on trying to get these trinitarians to realised that there was a human body, and that the human body was not God, and if it was then it was a created God of created flesh fed on creation like a nice salad sandwich which grew out of the ground rather than some spiritual sandwich that appeared out of thin air. crumbs they even got this God of flesh eating lamb an pickle, then all this other stuff about 'manifested in the flesh'' like a mindless maniquine dummy probably something Mary used for dress making, ah give em a brain and they would be dangerous  

bernard (hug)
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is it debatable Bern?

The whole passage is written in the past tense, as in something that has occurred not going to occur...

In fact, it is not about the messiah at all.  If you read it carefully, you will notice that the term messiah never occurs in the passage.  

It is not messianic prediction and is not referring to someone in the future who is going to suffer.

So who/what is this 'song' about?

The identification is quite clear in said books: “But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen” (44:1); “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant” (44:21); “And he said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified” (49:3).

It is of course Israel, God’s people.  

In Isaiah 53, when the author describes the servant’s past sufferings, he is talking about the sufferings they have experienced by being destroyed by the Babylonians.  

This is a suffering that has come about because of sins.  

But the suffering will be vindicated, because God will now restore Israel and bring them back to the land and enter into a new relationship with them.

It's simple when you thinks about it.......
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LeClerc
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Oh and to compound it all "Isa 53" ain't traditionally seen as a "Messiah" text within the Jewish community..

Basically because it isn't!


Isaiah 53 (more precisely, 52:13 to 53:12) has been understood in Messianic terms by a wide variety of ''Jewish'' commentators over a long period of time.

Quote:

The Targum

Behold, My Servant the Messiah shall prosper.

-- Targum ("Targum Jonathan") to Isaiah 52:13, various editions (such as Samson H. Levey, The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation; the Messianic Exegesis of the Targum." Cincinnati: Hebrew Union College, 1974, p. 63).


Quote:

Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b

The Rabbis said: His name is "the leper scholar," as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted. [Isaiah 53:4].

-- Soncino Talmud edition.


There is more evidence if you need it.

http://www.chaim.org/rabbis.htm

LeClerc
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Honey 56
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Farmer.

You quite rightly say this...

Quote:
This is a suffering that has come about because of sins.  

But the suffering will be vindicated, because God will now restore Israel and bring them back to the land and enter into a new relationship with them.

It's simple when you thinks about it.......


How then, do you think this situation will be resolved by God/YHWH?
How will the Israel be restored? how will the land be returned to Israel and their sins forgiven?

Honey
_________________
I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.   Yeshuw'ah my salvation.
11For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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Honey 56
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Location: west midlannds

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Farmer.

You quite rightly say this...

Quote:
This is a suffering that has come about because of sins.  

But the suffering will be vindicated, because God will now restore Israel and bring them back to the land and enter into a new relationship with them.

It's simple when you thinks about it.......


How then, do you think this situation will be resolved by God/YHWH?
How will Israel be restored? how will the land be returned to Israel and their sins forgiven?

Honey


_________________
I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.   Yeshuw'ah my salvation.
11For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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